this is a hard one-
i am pretty sure my dad wasn't spoiled - at all- in fact he worked his ass off as a stable boy from around 9 years old- he worked hard all his life and never seemed to get anything back from it- he drank and worked and felt sorry for himself. as a child though- i don't really know much about his childhood.
the alcoholics i know now- x-coworkers at the restaraunt- they are still pretty young to make that assesment- how long does continuous drinking go on before someone is pegged an alcoholic?

I should have paused my venting to think about that. No, I don't believe that all kids that way end up as alcoholics. But I think that alot of them that do, are there because they never learned to cope. I can't say that from experience though, I have never had an alcohol problem. Most of what I say about alcoholics just applies to my dad. He's the only alcoholic in my life. Perhaps my "perfectionism" stems from living with an alcoholic for 17 years. That's my emotional addiction, being in control. I'm a perfectionist control freak. Is that any better? Maybe...maybe not.

Kimberlee 2 very important phrases in yr post-"passive parenting"
& "children want to be parented".
As a older non parent bcz my son was adopted when he was 3 when I was not able to care for him for Not knowing how to growing up with alcoholic abusive parents,
I have had much observation of children & parents from a different angle of Not having to be a parent but an older role model friend.

Children So do want parenting. They want direction. I sometimes feel that if I had at least received some 'direction' instead of "you'll figure it out, yr smart' my life might not have been such a stressful waste of re-inventing the wheel!! & I might be able to extend some empathy to my mother for her plight after I struggled to sober my life up.

After losing my son to 'the best brave deed' of adoption to healthy parents I spiraled downwards, the direction I had been taught, so it was a strenous battle to regain my feet & many more years before I would even Recognize that children existed in the world. I don't know where they had gone... but they were Gone.
Until I lived in a mini-ghetto area in L.A. I had a mini yard where I tried desperatley to grow flowers & I had dogs & cats. The children were fascinated. Somehow I slowly became the surrogate after school mom for the poorest black & brown only 2choices in life children. They wanted someone that explained how & why. I can boast(with tears welling) that bcz of my no nonsense but earthy afternoons with many of them that I managed to Prevent them from following brothers into the Gangs. Not all. But even the oldest hardened men/boys had a glimpse into a different life & would come back to see me & tell me their tribulations of trying to get normal. One even ended up working for B of A LOL & too normal maybe.

Again I think that Yr phrases are so important. Without seeming direction that passive parenting, whether from Alcohol or buying into the New Society Party & Buy til you Drop syndrome children will learn from what they see as their adult direction. I can even describe the moment that I switched from an intelligent child that Loved school & wanted to Do Amazing things to the Party Girl of my mothers direction; the day she drunkenly came home from 'somewhere & said "I'm going to put my foot down on you before you start messing around!!! 'cz I don't want No trouble blah blah bla...." So I'm like OK I guess that was my cue to give Her something to put her foot down on - I always tried to please her. Then I was that almost girlfriend like you mentioned parents wanting to be friends instead of parents. But at 14 drinking & smoking to hang with her.......... dressing like I was 20 to get into Las Vegas bars & then bitterly yelled at for being too young But thinking I was so great bla bla bla....
I just wanted a true parent to guide me mom.......

& I'll finish saying I have discussed similiar about todays parents & squealing out of bound children wreaking havoc in our conservative child oriented county where good values are impressed as the norm. Some 'good' parents are-I don't know afraid of the boundaries of taking control & instead become a passive teacher that inccurs no guidelines of respect for others. We have this children uber alles syndrome but that allows for disrespect of others in its ultra respecting the child guise. I & others, parents & non parents, go out of our way to comment affirmatives to parents that interact & control their children in public. It is like a refreshing win & hope for the future when you see a real love bond & parent giving direction rather than putting up with the whims of their childs unformatted personality.
My ex wrote a song once that so covers it "I want what I want". I thought it so witty til I understood he meant it & it described his addiction to women in magazines bcz he could control them ultimately. I think that is some of what Jeanne & Violet were reffering too? Always getting thier way, chronic hissy fits bringing the lollipop, oh just go out & buy it & when that isn't fullfilling, or were thrown into the society pool of cold water
with out covering parents to mask the pitfalls one more round of beer will make them easier to drown the confusion.
Living in a college town that many students come to just to get away from home it is So Sad to watch especially for me the young women/girls that are chug a lugging pitchers to get enough attention to have some guy come dry hump them on the dance floor. Even with good parents I still think some responsibility must be ascribed to the 'marketing' companies that have a greater influence on the sub concious social mind. We have a gas station/corner store that has been here back when the town had No stores at all that has a banner with a sexy bikinied, low hung levi, come get me girl by buying this beer that changes faces each month. The rural boys in ag healthy USA have grown up as that female ideal; get my gas, a beer, some chips & I too will be found by HER the sexpot of my dreams.
LOL I thought Prince Charles was going to come & save me from OC hell........ I knew I was really a lost princess & he was scouring the earth on his magic carpet, every English mystery detective was looking for me so Prince Charles would have his Real Queen.......

Yea I dont understand the appeal either. Not to be unsympathetic or anything, but there are all kinds of sad ass drunk coming into our store buying a couple fourtys in the morning. One guy came to buy more beer the same morning and I refused his sale. Not only was that the moral thing for me to do, but I think its illegal to sell to someone that keeps coming back like that. And the slurry speeched dude had the audacity to tell me he wasnt drunk...

BTW everyone...tomorrows my last day of that unsavory job!